In today’s society, is it still a common theme to be defined by a man, such as your significant other, or for a man to have that desire to be the power figure in a relationship? Women who are subservient to a man are seen as weak and without gumption. But, would relationships such as Janie’s to Jodie in Their Eyes Were Watching God, which was very mentally abusive, be seen as all right because of the security Joe brought Janie? At what point does the positives of a relationship not outweigh the negative abuse and thus make the woman not considered strong for staying in it.
Throughout the novel Their Eyes Were Watching God there is a prevalent theme of women being defined by their relationships to men, particularly Janie. Our more in depth investigation came when we saw the theme of abuse (physical and mental) in the novel. There a numerous examples in the text of times when abuse becomes a means of control. Focusing on this abusive control, we related it back to modern day to see if the judgments of abused women are still the same.
Abuse in this instance is used as a way to keep control over the women and thus define her by the man’s standards. On p. 74-75 Walter Thomas says that if his wife were to act the way Mrs. Robbins did he would “kill her” or “break her,” and criticizes Mr. Robbins for not keeping her in line. But Mrs. Robbins is trying to get food for her and her children to eat because she says they are hungry. Is she strong because she is doing what she can to provide for her children, or is Walter Thomas right in criticizing her husband for not keeping her in line? Is a man today still seen as weak if he can’t keep his woman from doing things he disagrees with? Can a woman today still be strong if she keeps from doing what she thinks is right (like beg for food for her children) because her husband disagrees?
Another instance is when Tea Cake hits Janie for the actions of Mrs. Turner. Janie reacts to this with more compassion and love for Tea Cake, which some can judge as weak because she took it as an act of passion than an act of control. So can a strong black women be in an abusive relationship? Now a day’s women have more outlets for help when they are being physically or even mentally abused. Would a strong black woman take that kind of abuse these days?
What is considered abuse to you?
"Relationship Abuse is a pattern of abusive and coercive behaviors used to maintain power and control over a former or current intimate partner. An abusive relationship means more than being hit by the person who claims to love or care about you. Abuse can be emotional, psychological, financial, sexual or physical and can include threats, isolation, and intimidation. Abuse tends to escalate over time. When someone uses abuse and violence against a partner, it is always part of a larger pattern to try to control her/him."
www.stanford.edu/group/svab/relationships.shtml
www.stanford.edu/group/svab/relationships.shtml
Some facts about abuse:
The majority of domestic violence victims are women.
More than 32 million Americans are affected by domestic violence each year.
(Joyful Heart Foundation)
We have discussed in class before how in order for a black woman to be seen as a Strong Black Woman she needed to be sacrificing and always struggling. Is violent abuse a way of sacrificing her body, and her mind in order to keep the household together, to keep the appearance of a family? Could it also be said that in order for the black woman to be seen as strong, she would have to sacrifice her man by leaving him? Also, on the last page of chapter 9 Janie is often told that "uh woman by herself is uh pitiful thing....[she] needs a man."
Not only is there the extreme of abuse, but the fact that a lot of women who are considered strong may still be under the control of a man, or feel the need to always have, and please a man. For example would a strong black woman like Michelle Obama stand up to her husband if they disagreed politically?
Greg Reid
ReplyDeleteI believe that a strong black woman would stand up to her husband because in order to be seen as stong she would express herself and do so in a respectful manner. Expressing her opinion, even if it was different from her husband, would happen if she were truly stong. Also, her husband, and others, would see her as strong because she stood by her beliefs. She can have her opinion and still be a good wife, a good friend, and so forth. It is important for her to be respectful in her disagreeing, just as it would be for her husband to be respectful if he didn't share her opinion on a subject. So, yes, I believe Michelle Obama would express her beliefs even if that were not the same as her husband's.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMelissa Dutra
ReplyDeleteI feel like a black woman that hones the STBW ideal, would stay with an abusive partner because she is so used to putting others before her self. Amongst the many reasons, she'd do this, one would be to keep her family together. In terms of wellness and wholeness, I do not see the strong black woman ideal at all positive because it allows for the preservation of spousal abuse. Abuse to me starts when someone does not respect you and when there is that lack of respect, anything harmful is possible. The strong black woman ideal should be socially re-written, to consider black females and their worth as individuals. Further, in regards to the question of Mrs. Obama, I believe she would tell Obama that she did disagree with him in some point, whether political or otherwise. The reason I believe this is because Michelle Obama is not a strong black woman but the ideal black woman. From what we see, hear, or read about her in the news, she is a figure of wellness and wholeness. She cares about her family and others as well as she cares for herself. One can see this through her dress, relationship with the president and her children.
Abigail Remillard AML2600...
ReplyDeleteThe definition of a strong black women is different for all of us, as discussed in class. This is not a bad thing, but needs to be defined when talking about your own personal opinions.
Janie is a strong black women. She gets emtionally abused from Jodie daily, hit and slapped from Tea Cakeeven worse. The strong black women, as defined from previous and past readings says to us that a black women's job is to take care of her family and stand behind her husband. She clinches her teeth whenever Jodie hurt her and cut her down because that is her job. It was scorned upon to leave your man back in that day.
Michelle Obama might have different political views apart from her husband, but she understands that if she were to say anything that would cause danger to our government and strong upholdings. She might say something out loud to the president, but it is not her job nor her place to contradict what President Obama(her hunsband) is trying to say and accomplish.
Adrianne Carter AML 2600
ReplyDeleteWomen who differ in opinion with their husbands may choose to express their views publicly or privately. Wanting to save face publicly does not make a woman weak. Some men need to be handled delicately in regards to certain subjects. This was somewhat illustrated in Janie's treatment of Jody and his reaction to it. I do not think that Michelle Obama would get on Oprah and start a political war with her husband. It is entirely possible that she might pull him to the side and have a chat about their differences. Abuse comes in many different varieties and intensity levels. Abuse is negativity towards a participant in a relationship that results in the harm of its recipient. A harmonious relationship is not about who is controlling whom. A woman putting up with an abusive man doesn't make her strong, in fact it may be that she has some dependency issues.
Hannah Bryan
ReplyDeleteI do think it is still fairly common for a woman to be defined by a man, but that it is beginning to change in this society.
I would like to know what the appeal of the Strong Black Woman is to some people, since it is associated with so much misery and suffering and can be so unhealthy. I think the Strong Black Woman is often an unrealistic and romanticized idea that women cannot achieve. It’s not always the case, but I can see it all the time.
I have one problem with general feminism regarding relationships between men and women: the typical feminist that I know of wants women to have the power to determine their own lives independent of a man’s will. However, when some women willingly choose to allow their men to lead, some feminists are quick to criticize and put those women down. Didn’t feminism want women to choose? In the marriage/relationship aspect, whatever happened to having a choice about one’s own life?
It’s up to each individual person. I can never tell another person what to believe or do. When it comes to relationships, both people need to agree about this issue and meet on equal footing, or else it will only lead to frustration and pain. Personally, I am prepared to allow my man to take the lead, but he had better be ready to accept my guidance too.
As for abuse… yes, I think it is usually associated with control. Again, the gray area depends on each individual person. “Physical abuse is not okay” is pretty much obvious for most people. When it comes to mental, emotional, psychological, and maybe spiritual health, this can be quite gray at times. Of course, there are understandable facets to the topic: derisive and disrespectful comments can seriously damage a relationship. The degree to which people use or receive such comments depends on each person’s personal preference. For example, my father sometimes gets frustrated like anyone else and says things in a slightly derisive tone. My mother is fine with it because she understands him and loves him anyway. On the other hand, I despise it when I hear anyone talk like that. I am a bit more on the sensitive side. For little things like that, as well as with other, bigger things, couples need to communicate and try to understand each other and realize what is okay and what is not okay.
Phew... I said a lot, and I even left a lot of it out!
To answer the first question, I don’t agree that violent abuse physically or emotionally should be seen as a sacrifice so that the appearance of the family and household can look good. I feel that if this were true the male characters in “Their Eyes Were Watching God” wouldn’t be commenting Tea Cake on how they like seeing that Janie can bruise so easily. If the abuse was used to keep up the appearance then that was already lost. Also with a real life example, If a female were to be abused and her marks were showing people that care about her would start asking questions and sense that something was wrong in her relationship; this would not be “keeping up the appearance” either. I do agree with the point being said that in” order for the black woman to be seen as strong she would have to sacrifice her man by leaving him”. I don’t think that a strong black woman has to sacrifice her man to be strong but if he is abusing her and she leaves I would define that as being strong because she was able to get out of a dangerous situation. I don’t know the personal relationship that Michelle and Barack have but I do think she’s the type of woman who would be able to stand up to her husband if they disagreed politically.
ReplyDeleteIndia Williams
ReplyDeleteThere is no reason for a REAL man to hit a woman in the first place. God did not create a man to abuse or control a woman but to be at his side. There is no reason for why a woman should take abuse from her spouse because it is not ultimately building her up into a strong black woman, its actually breaking her down mentally and emotionally. If a man hits a woman once, they are bound to do it again and God forbid that something worse happens. Love is a strong emotion and it makes you do crazy things, but the safety of a woman and her children should be a number one priority. Just like in For Colored girls when the guy was abusing his wife and children and eventually dropped them out of the window. She stayed because she felt like she could help him overcome his heavy drinking but in the end it cost her the lives of her two children. Janie took the abuse with Jodie because I think that she felt that there was no other way out. She was Mrs. Joe Starks and she had the role of staying in her place as the mayors wife. But enough is enough and she eventually told him how she felt and I think that it made her a better person. And when Tea Cake hit her, it was just as worse. She was not responsible for the words and ideas that came out of Mrs. Turners mouth and she should not have had to face consequences of Tea Cake's jealously. He whipped her to let her know that she was "his" as if she was some type of property. Being that I have never been in that type of situation, I personally do not know what it feels like to be in a abusive relationship and it may be hard to get out of but as friends and family members of others of who we know about whats going on in households, we should be there for those women and children who need a way out.
Kandis Hankerson AML2600
ReplyDeleteI feel that Joe took things too far in the novel because he was trying to make Janie look like she is beneath him. Sometimes I felt like she is strong for taking it but then weak because she aloud it. I make this comment based on when he tried to embarrass her in front of the whole time by talking about her body.
In the situation with Mrs. Robbins I feel that she was taking things to the extreme and actually making her husband look bad because she was all out in the open talking about how she and her children are hungry, when it states that her husband is always buying groceries for them. And I wouldn’t say that her husband is weak for not keeping her in line because she is her own person, I would just say that he is not doing his “husbandly job” by taking care of them the right way so that she would not be begging for food. I think that regardless Mrs. Robbins was strong because even though she took things to far, she still had the guts to go and ask for food instead of just starving.
When Tea Cake hit Janie, I think that is just her way of showing that she will do better. Though I today’s society I feel that women do not take that much crap from men, however, I may be wrong. That is because I have seen situations where girls stay in relationships regardless if their man is beating them constantly. So in the end I think it is all based on the women and how she takes things.
Jasmin Faust
ReplyDeleteBeing a black women and allowing a man to abuse you is not a sign of strength, but furthermore is foolishness and a silent cry for help. To me taking physical, mental or emotional abuse whether it be from your boyfriend, fiancé, or husband is very dangerous because eventually it will and can lead up to something for more worse. I think in a situation like that the most strength comes from the womens ability to get herself out of the abusive relationship. Most women stay for the sake of fear and depending on how long this abuse has been going on she may feel like its just too late to get out. Love will not hurt you so if a man truly and deeply loved you then there wouldn't be a thing in the world that would make him want to hurt you in any way. I do believe that a women should be submissive but there is a difference between submissive and allowing a man to use you as a floor mat and punching bag. Its always easy to say what you would do if you were in a situation when your on the outside looking in. Physical abuse is not always the case emotional abuse can be just as horrible to a women. All a person has to rely on in his/her self dignity once that is taken from them what else is there to depend on.
Cameron Leonard
ReplyDeleteI believe that a strong black woman would voice her opinion and stand up for her beliefs over her husband. A woman taking mental or physical abuse can only go on for so long no matter how you turn it. Some women also has love for their significant other to where they can’t see the abuse and believe that its only a mistake and not because they may be abusive. The only way I believe that women can recover is if they leave the situation and see it for what it is. A SBW compliments her man in his decisions and if she has a different opinion she should have the right to do so without being controlled. That doesn’t mean for women not to be seen as weak is suppose to bash their man and having them seem weak but for them to help each other and come to a common ground.
Hallie Bowns
ReplyDeleteI really just want to put it out there that "control freaks" are not always in control by means of abuse. However, abuse does tend to control some people and if you are the abuser, you are supposedly the who is in control of the abused. But I'm waiting for the day when the abused step up to the plate with an AK 47 and decides to be in charge. What's the original abuser gonna be in charge of then? Exactly. Yeah you'll more than likely face jail time after threatening someone with any form of weapon, but who knows it might be worth it to finally eb able to take control of yourself and I'll be rooting for that person when they finally do step up even if they do face prison.
That being said, I'm not expecting every person being abused to be able to have access to such weapon, but if they can stand up once, just once, and say something, that's all it takes. Once the abused can stand up for themselves, that's what makes them strong. They are not weak for being beaten and having no control over that situation. They are weak if they do not stand up for themsleves and take some consideration for the matter.
Kristin Salter
ReplyDeleteAs I said in class earlier today I think that if a woman is bold enough to hit a man then he would not be wrong to hit her back. But the man who has sense is not going to hit a woman back. He may push her real hard or shake her (as my big brother would say) but he wouldn't hit her. I think that if a person hits another person they should be prepared to get hit back regardless of gender. Abuse is wrong any way I look at it. Once abuse has started it has to be nipped in the bud or it will continue. If a person lets abuse continue then they can not be seen as strong.
Clive Hall
ReplyDeleteI think that abuse could be seen as both physical and mental, in my opinion mental abuse may be a little bit worse. In today's time, I think that women have a lot more of a voice for themselves then they did in the era of when "Their Eyes Were Watching God" did. Nowadays, out of the few married couples you did see, I think that there is more of a co-independence (for lack of a better word) evident throughout the interaction between husband and wife. I feel like there are maybe rare instances where a black lady would be chastised by her husband and in response to the verbal abuse defend herself, bringing the ridicule of the husband as a result. The focus of relationships in today's world is more about what you can bring to the table as an individual, not how much power over the other person you have.
Nathaniel Watson,
ReplyDeleteI don't think that as many women are "defined by their men" as used to be. Gender/relationship dynamics of today bear almost no resemblance the the more traditional, paternal values of...well the values of most of the cultures of the world since the beginning of mankind (just keeping it real). To some degree, all the femenist movements worked: women have a more prevalent place in the workplace, and also have more of an opportunity, in terms of social perception, to be independent. There are many independent women in the media and some popular couples (Mariah Carey and Nick Cannon for example) are dominated by the more popular female. So the male control freak is becoming less of a prominent thing these days. As far as abuse goes, i feel like mental/emotional abuse happens a whooole lot more often than physical, and that it can be more scarring for a longer period of time.
LaQuanda Smith
ReplyDeleteI personally don't think that allowing a man or anyone for that matter to abuse you is a sign of strength. A lot of people may argue that its love, well I say "Whats love got to do with it?" You don't physically and verbally abuse the one you "love" simple as that. If a man has the balls to put his hands on you the first time more than likely he'll do it again, it's up to you whether or not you get out at the first sign of abuse. Some women make it out and some just don't make it out alive.
I definitely don't believe that beating a women makes a guy a man, he's nothing more than a coward. Maybe he's trying to prove soomething to himself because he feels inadequate. Which happened to be most of the guys problem in the novel Their Eyes Were Watching God.
This topic is pretty straight forward for me. I really do not ever think it is okay for a man to hit a women. I do believe that a woman can be physically abusive to a man as well but normally the physical size of a man would overpower most women. I think of it as an analogy of a boxing match. A light weight fighter would never be expected to be able to beat a heavy weight fighter. And in fact if the heavy weight fighter and the light weight fighter got into a fight it would be assumed the heavy weight fighter would have no problem holding his own. So this can be applied to a 200 pound man and a 120 pound woman. Its obvious the man will be the dominant physical force if a fight happens. This is why the man will always be responsible for any physical damage done to a woman and will never be felt sorry for if he gets hurt. I do believe, however, if a weapon is used or if a woman gets a cheap shot in then she should be subject to the same consequences a man would face if damage was done to a woman in any case. Also if a woman is bigger than the man then the complete opposite would apply. When normal situations are present it is completely absurd for a man to feel "tough" because he can hit a woman. He should be ashamed.
ReplyDeleteprevious comment by Kurtis Nelson
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI do not think it is as common today as it was in the past to be defined by your man in a relationship. That is because women have more opportunities so they no longer have to settle for what they can get through their husbands.
ReplyDeleteIf we look at Janie’s relationship in the time period she was living in, I think it may have been more acceptable for her to remain in a relationship that was mentally abusive but bought financial security. First of all, many of the comments made by the other woman insinuate that the only aspect of wellness people were concerned with at that time was of financial security. The conversations Janie has with her grandmother definitely alludes to this. And since financial security was most important she had, I think it was most important for her to get it by any means necessary. She was living in a period of time where women weren’t considered to be self- sufficient or smart enough to be independent (and when Janie 1st begins to speak to Tea Cake, her comment s let us knows she shares that view). It was impossible to make money without having some to start off (to buy a donkey or land or whatever). She wouldn’t be able to get a job because Jody owned the town. The only family member she knew was gone, and she was so far removed from the community, I don’t know that she’s have somewhere to go had she left. Because of these things I think that it remaining in the relationship she did was alright.
I don’t think the particular scenario with Mrs. Turner had less to do with a matter of being strong or not and more of a matter of respect. From what I understood, Mr. Turner was providing what his family needed, it just wasn’t as much as Mrs. Turner wanted. And since I was taught that one’s family business and especially struggles should not be put on Main Street, I think Ms. Turner should have just fed her kids what her husband was bringing home. Janie was willing to settle for what Tea Cake could provide rather than make him feel incompetent or emasculate and Mrs. Turner need to do the same for her husband because now she’s playing with a man’s pride.
Is a man today still seen as weak if he can’t keep his woman from doing things he disagrees with?
A man cannot be considered weak if he can’t keep his woman from doing things he disagrees with because he does not own her. On both sides of the relationship there will be disagreements you’ll have to deal with. And at the point where two people get into a relationship, getting your way doesn’t take precedent over what is best for the group.
Based on the definitions we’ve read so far, I don’t know if I can even attest to the fact that a strong black woman exist. So because of this I cant say whether or not a “strong black woman” would stay in an abusive relationship. But I do think that Michelle Obama can disagree with Barack politically because their two different people with two different minds. I personally think that it may be best to handle that privately but people have the option to handle it however they like.
Ashlee Thompson
ReplyDeleteAbuse comes in many forms: physical, mental, emotional, sexual and a whole lot more. However, the definition or what turns a smack or two into abuse is different for all of us. Because everyone has different parents and experience life in different ways so our experiences and what we see shape and form what we think and how we see the world. So abuse to me may not be abuse to you. Either way I don’t think a man has any business putting his hands on a woman. In the same sense now-a-days I don’t just expect a man to get his tail whooped up and down the street by a women. My mama told my older brother now-a-days if she tells her baby never to hit a girl he’ll wind up dead. So woman shouldn’t hit men either. Because I believe if you woman enough to hit him be woman enough to get the spit knocked out of your mouth when he hits yo dumb tail back.
I feel using abuse as a means to show power over another human only makes that person look foolish and uncultured.
ReplyDeleteIt's almost as if the abuser expects to be respected, when in reality the abuser is mistaking the fear he or she is instilling in their victim for respect. Men are not exclusive to being the only gender that uses abuse for such means. Women may not be as physically abuse as males are, but they may use language as a means to carry out emotional and psychological abuse in order to get their way.
This kind of psychological abuse may not be as evident especially when blinded by emotion. It seems that love may remove ones ability to see what is truly happening around them, much like what seems to happen to Janie throughout the course of the novel as her love for Tea Cake puts her in a situation she has been in before. Although one may argue she knew what she was getting into when she rotates the reel of Tea Cake's pistol. Although she may have experienced different types of abusive behavior Janie continues to push forward and ultimately shows how abuse may not necessarily destroy a human being. It takes a certain type of human being to be abusive, it seems all the men in Janie's life were self abusive consuming themselves in sustaining a certain standard of living consequently putting Janie on the back burner.
above post by Stephen Yanes.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, taking any form of abuse in order to keep a relationship together, for whatever reason, whether it is love, for the sake of children, etc., is not a sacrifice that any woman OR man should have to make. And for a woman, allowing a man to be abusive for any of these reasons does not make you a “strong black woman.” Today, one of our classmates stated that there is a difference between being submissive and flat out letting someone abuse you and walk all over. We have discussed that a strong black woman should be self-sacrificing, but she shouldn’t have to sacrifice her physical, emotional or mental health for any man. A real man doesn’t need to abuse his woman to show strength or to exert masculinity. A strong woman can stand up for herself, have a disagreement with her man, etc. without disrespecting him, belittling him or abusing him in any other manner. It's about respect, understanding each other, knowing where you stand with the other person, and good communication.
ReplyDeleteKestrel L. Ambrose
I feel like the women in our society are still defined by the men that they date or marry; however, women do not necessarily choose a man to define theme. My reasoning for this belief is that woman will always be defined by their spouse's profession, last name, and what their spouse do. For example, we call women that are married to a pastor "the pastor's wife" but we barely recognize her efforts and accomplishments. Men are born with egos and will always have the desire and the mentality to be the power figure and holder. As far as Their Eyes Were Watching God is concerned I don’t feel that Janie and Jodie’s relationship was all right or okay because not only did Joe physically abuse Janie he mentally abused her as well. In my opinion when a partner or love one verbally or physically assaults you that means he/she has not one ounce of respect for you. There are many strong black women in abusive relationships, though it is toxic and not safe. Abuse to me is any type of physical, emotional, or mental abuse. I define abuse as if I am in a relationship with someone and I cringe or have an ounce of fear that he will hit me every time he raises his hand or say something that won’t settle well with my stomach. Like it was said in class, If you kill a person once you’re a murder, if you hit someone once you’re abusive.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteJerold Blount
ReplyDeleteLove and relationships are complex. Too much so to make the generalization that if a woman is in an abusive relationship then she is not "strong". In Janie and Jodie's case, no it wasn't alright. There's no way of telling how much Janie felt she was sacraficing face for that security. By the same token, she wasn't putting up with it to keep any children or extended family secure, only herself, and in that, she had more ground to stand up to Jodie than if she had kids or more than just her financial stability dependent on that relationship. That being said, My impression of a strong black woman is also a smart black woman. There is such a thing as strong and stupid, and the strong black woman I envision when I hear the phrase is nowhere near it, but that may not be the case for everyone. We all pick our fights, and fighting them with intelligence, whether along with strength or not is better than fighting them with strength alone. So when we think about whether a person is weak or not for being manipulated or controlled by their spouse, all things must be considered, including the fact that we don't know all the things there are to be considered before judging.
Some situations are more tolerable for some than others, so the point where the bad outweighs the good obviously depends on how much the person going thru it is willing to take, and the reason they choose to put up with it makes the difference in whether their tolerance should be seen as weakness.
A man's strength shouldn't be defined by the things his woman does, nor for his ability to control her. It does however, represent a man's judgement (who he chooses for a partner). They should be considerate of each other's likes, dislikes, beliefs and disbeliefs, and also be smart enough in the begining to determine whether the person they are becoming partners with could possibly do something drastic that they completely disagree with, (or stop them from doing something they want or feel passionate about). I think if both people are on the same accord with this, and the man STILL has a problem where he would try to stop a woman from doing her...then the weakness is in his judgement, and his ability to control the situation (with intelligence) rather than the person (with "strength").